Christiane Maria Heideh Amanpour CBE, the Chief International Anchor for CNN and host of CNN International’s nightly interview program speaks with Gershon Baskin, who helped secure the release of captured Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit more than a decade ago, about the efforts to release Israelis in Gaza and what needs to be done the day after the war.
Click here to watch the video of the Interview
AMANPOUR: Gershon Baskin is a longtime hostage negotiator. He played a prominent role in the release of Israeli soldier, Gilad Shalit, in 2011.
Gershon Baskin
Shalit had been held hostage by Hamas for five years. Baskin now says he’s in touch with both sides in an unofficial capacity. And he’s joining me now
from Jerusalem. Gershon Baskin, welcome to the program.
GERSHON BASKIN, MIDDLE EAST DIRECTOR, ICO INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITIES ORGANIZATION: Thank you.
AMANPOUR: I was struck — well, let me ask you, what did you make of Yocheved — sorry. What did you make of her coming out and talking about
her ordeal? What do you think she said that was interesting to you as a negotiator and as somebody, you know, who wants to know as much as possible
of what they experienced?
BASKIN: Well, I think that what she said is a reflection of what Gilad Shalit also said in private to us when he was released, that Hamas had
rules that they held by in keeping the hostages as opposed to what they did in the civilian communities.
Shalit, for instance, was kept in captivity for five years and four months with the same four people who were living with him throughout the ordeal
that he went through. And this is a reflection of what we heard from Yocheved Lifshitz was — as well. She was not abused physically. Of course,
it was quite a traumatic ordeal for her and no one should have to go through that.
I think the word should be a little bit assuring for the families of the 220 hostages who remain behind. But there’s still significant reason for
concern. Because it’s not at all clear that Hamas is holding all the hostages. We know that Islamic jihad took hostages and PFLP and other
individuals. And we saw the behavior that took place inside the civilian communities and at that music and dance festival where a massacre took
place, committed by Hamas.
AMANPOUR: So, you know, she comes out after this awful ordeal and she — and she’s talking. So, she said — for instance, we’ll play a couple of her
soundbites. And I want to play them consecutively because they’re quite short. So, here’s how she describes what she saw and where she was and how
she was treated
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHARONE LIFSHITZ, DAUGHTER OF YOCHEVED LIFSHITZ, FREED ISRAELI HOSTAGE: There are a huge network of tunnels underneath. It looks like a spiderweb.
Y. LIFSHITZ (through translator): Close doctor who came to see us every two to three days. The paramedic took it upon himself and took care of
medicines. If there were not medicines, they would bring substitute medicine, equivalent medicines.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: So, first describing the spiderweb, and I wonder if that’s news to you or did you know about that? And then, of course, she says, you know,
that she was treated well, as you said, the others were too, in your experience. I guess because they are currency.
BASKIN: They are certainly currency. The spiderweb of tunnels has been called by Israel the metro of a whole network completely underneath the
Gaza Strip. And this is reflective of the reality in Gaza over the last 17 years that Hamas has ruled. They’ve invested a huge amount of money in the
underground tunnels and bunkers, whereas they didn’t invest the same amount of money in the welfare of the people living there, unfortunately. If they
did, perhaps we would have a different reality today.
But I think also that the wider message — and this is following up on the message of Queen Rania, is that it should be no surprise to anyone that
we’ve arrived at such a horrific situation. It has to be a wakeup call for Israel that you cannot keep another people occupied for 56 years and expect
out peace. You can’t lock 2 million people in an open-air prison and expect there to be quiet.
And for the Palestinians, it should be a wakeup call that if you support radical, fanatic leaders and refuse to recognize the other people living in
your land as having the same rights that you do, then you’re going to suffer this.
This is the most traumatic events for Israel and Palestine since 1948. And the only hope is also, in the words of Queen Rania, that we have a wake-up
moment at the end of this tragedy. I call it the day after tomorrow, because tomorrow will be too soon to draw these kinds of conclusions. But
it’s obviously that the people who brought us to here are leaders on both sides need to go. We need a new generation with a new vision. And I hope
that the trauma doesn’t prevent us from looking forward.
[13:30:00]
There’s no doubt that we will remember this. It will become part of our narrative. Each side will continue to blame each other for it. But we
Israelis and we Palestinians need to learn that we have to look forward and not only backwards. Our history will never change. It’s our future that we
have a chance of changing.
AMANPOUR: Gershon Baskin, that’s very brave to say at this point that your leaders who have declared war — obviously, you’re saying the same about
the other side, but your leaders need to go, and there is a lot who we — you know, we asked the idea of what about the intelligence failure? What
about the military failure? What about all of this? What about Netanyahu thinking he could manage Hamas? And they say, yes, all of this has to be,
you know, investigated afterwards and accountability afterwards.
So, the afterwards presumably is when they succeed or not in what they say their war aim is, which is to defeat Hamas as a military and a political
entity. So, I want to ask you, because you know them, and you have even written, I have no official authorization as a negotiator, but as far as I
know, I’m the only Israeli citizen who has contacts both with the leadership of Hamas and the leadership of Israel.
That in itself is an extraordinary thing given — you know, given the amount of contact, adverse contact you have. So, right now, what are you
saying to the Hamas people that you know? Are you in touch with them?
BASKIN: I’ve had very deep conversations with them. Some very, very difficult conversations. I keep emphasizing to them that regardless of what
they did, they now need to do the right thing. And the right thing is to free the civilian hostages. As was said by Queen Rania and King Abdullah,
it’s against the Quran, it’s against Islam to hold women, children, elderly people, sick people as hostages. They need to do the right thing.
Now, my understanding is that there is a proposal being discussed that was transmitted to Israel from Hamas by the Qataris. The Egyptians are also
involved. There seems to be a blockage in moving forward with an Israeli ceasefire in exchange for the civilian hostages.
According to the “Wall Street Journal,” it was reported that the issue of entering — of allowing fuel to enter Gaza is the blockage. Israel doesn’t
want to fuel the Hamas war machine, but yet, we have a civilian humanitarian crisis of unbelievable proportions. The hospitals will stop
functioning. Will stop having electricity to provide lifesaving care for people. And we need to find a solution.
This is a stupid problem that’s blocking a possible release of civilians and a ceasefire that would allow people in Gaza to breathe for the first
time in two weeks, and we need to find a solution. Why can’t the International Red Cross or the Qataris who put this forth — this proposal
fourth or the Egyptians tell Israel, we will accompany the full fuel trucks into Gaza, we will bring them to the hospitals we will ensure that Hamas
will not steal the fuel?
We need to solve this stupid problem in order to enable hostages to be released in for a ceasefire, stopping the bombing to occur at least for a
period long enough for people to get help, to seek refuge, to find a place to stay overnight, to have food and water to drink We have to wake up to
the reality that tomorrow we are still going to be here, Israelis and Palestinians, and we are going to have to find a way to live together. We
need to find humanity within us, even in this horrific moment.
AMANPOUR: You know, you said a lot of incredibly important things just now, and it’s really interesting to see you find common ground in certain points
with Queen Rania, because the divisions have become so intense now about who to side with, who to stand with, and she talked about a double
standard.
So, I want to ask you, it appears the Israeli public opinion, according to journalists in Israel, are shifting towards not so much crushing, as the
government said Hamas as a first priority, but saving the hostages. Do you think that’s the case? And remember, you negotiated the release of Gilad
Shalit for some 1,027 Palestinian prisoners, some of which, some of whom went back and committed the crimes that happened on October 7th. I mean,
it’s a really — yes.
BASKIN: Yes, four of the hostages — four of the prisoners released in the Shalit (ph) were responsible for killing my wife’s first cousin a year
before Shalit was abducted. So, this is personal. It gets personal for all of us.
I think that we have to understand that if there’s an opportunity to free hostages, that everything has to be done to do that, and I think the
Israeli government postponing the land incursion is a reflection of the attempts to try every avenue possible to free the civilian hostages.
[13:35:00]
Let’s face it, Israel has a moral responsibility to them because it failed to protect them. The most basic function, the responsibility of a state is
to protect its citizens and Israel failed to protect the citizens of Israel who live along the Gaza border. They have a moral responsibility to bring
them home.
Yes, it has been the primary directive since October 7th of the Israeli society, of the government in the army to remove the ability of Hamas to
govern in Gaza and to threaten Israel. And I think that Israel is committed to getting that job done. But I think you’re absolutely right that the
moral weight of the responsibility of the country to save human lives and to bring the hostages home is now coming to the front.
And I don’t think it will put off forever the incursion on the ground, but at least for now, there is this small window of opportunity with a ticking
clock that needs to be exploited by our friends in the region, by the Qataris and the Egyptians and the Red Cross and anyone else who can help.
The Americans have weighed in. There’s been a parade of international leaders coming here. President Macron was the first person who visited
Israel and also took time to visit President Abbas in Ramallah. I think we need international pressure now to get a ceasefire and to release the
civilian hostages.
AMANPOUR: Gershon, can I play a piece of video that has created a huge, you know, uproar in Israel, and that is of Yocheved as she came out and she was
obviously being talked to by the Red Cross. And, you know, she’s there and she turns around and she delivers a human gesture and a handshake to, I
guess, somebody who was her captor.
It’s Hamas video that they that they put out. She was, you know, leaving and saying goodbye, I assume. What do you make of that? What do you make of
that gesture?
BASKIN: Well, I think, first of all, it’s important to know who she is. She’s a woman who has volunteered for years of driving Palestinian children
and their mothers and fathers to hospitals inside of Israel for medical treatment. She has been a member of Women Wage Peace, Israel’s largest
peace movement. Also, another woman, Vivian Silver, from Kibbutz Be’eri, was abducted and is held hostage in Gaza. She was one of the founders and
leaders of Women Wage Peace.
I assume that Yocheved speaks some Arabic and she probably tried to communicate with her captors. I imagine that if I, God forbid, was being
held in Gaza, I would make every opportunity to befriend the people who are holding me because my life is at stake. I think we also have to remember
that her husband is still being held hostage in Gaza. And had she come out and immediately done something completely opposite, maybe it would endanger
the life of her husband.
But I think it was those kinds of humane gestures that are important to show. I know a friend who did research on Holocaust survivors and ask the
question, why do some Holocaust survivors become these people who are very, very anti-Arab and others are in the peace camp?
AMANPOUR: Yes.
BASKIN: And what she found in interviewing many Holocaust survivors who were part of the peace camp is that there was a moment when they were going
through the horrendous suffering during the holocaust that someone made a humane gesture, someone gave them a piece of bread or gave them a night
stay in a home or gave them a blanket, and those gestures of humanity what would transform their worldview later and enable them to support peace with
the Arabs rather than being against them.
AMANPOUR: Gosh, Gershon Baskin, you have such incredible firsthand important experience and your perspective has been invaluable tonight.
Thank you so much for joining us.
BASKIN: Thank you very much.
