Gershon Baskin
still room to reach a deal to free the hostages and put a pause to what is this relentless fighting and bombardment. Benjamin Netanyahu, though,
describing a proposal put forward by Hamas as delusional. Now he says the only way to free the captives is a total Israeli victory over Hamas.
So as concern deepens for civilians in the city of Rafah amid the threat of an Israeli assault, tonight we ask, is the window for a deal closing? With
his thoughts on that, Gershon Baskin, a former hostage negotiator for Israel joins me now.
Good to have you, sir. I’m delighted that you’ve made time for us tonight.
You say a ceasefire deal would be a huge victory for Hamas, but Israel you say has no choice. Just explain the conceit of your argument if
you will.
BASKIN: Right. I think rather than a ceasefire, I was talking about the end of the war. If the war were to end with an Israeli withdrawal and Hamas
still in control of Gaza, that would be a huge defeat for Israel and a huge victory for Hamas. And personally, I think that’s dangerous for the
Palestinian people in Gaza in the West Bank. I think it was dangerous for Jordan and for Egypt as well.
On the other hand, Mr. Netanyahu talks about a total victory. There is no total victory over Hamas if Israel reoccupies Gaza and kills many thousands
of more Palestinians and remains there enabling Hamas and other radicals to engage in armed insurgency. There is a deal on the table that can give us a
pause and release some of the hostages and allow each side to reconsider its steps and possibilities while the international community led by the
United States may be able to come up with a plan that can lead us out of the war and to a better situation for us all.
ANDERSON: Well, you come at this with a great deal of experience not least in negotiating with Hamas, the release of Gilad Shalit. Are you saying you
don’t regret that deal and the precedent that its set, although you have taken an awful lot of criticism for that? Michael Segal writing an opinion
piece for the “Wall Street Journal,” February 6th, said, and I quote here. He says the 2011 deal with Hamas that freed Gilad Shalit led to the taking
of hundreds more.
And he writes, “Both Israel and the U.S. need to return to the simple principle that decisive victory is the best way to restore peace.” Just
explain for our viewers why if you do not agree with Segal, why it is that you don’t agree with him?
BASKIN: You know, the central problem is not Yahyah Sinwar, or the fact that Israel made a deal to release an Israeli soldier after five years and
four months in captivity, the longest any Israeli has been held in captivity in Israel’s history. The problem is that we have been led to
believe by our leaders that we can occupy another people for 56 years and expect to have peace or that we can lock 2.2 million Palestinians in a
territory like Gaza with 80 percent poverty and expected they’ll be quiet.
The release of Gilad Shalit from Gaza after five years and four months there enabled Israel to engage the Palestinian people with the process of
trying to figure out how we’re going to share this land rather than Mr. Netanyahu trying to make the Palestinian issue disappear from our horizons
and convincing the world that Israel can live in peace with its Arab neighbors without dealing with the most core issue of this conflict, which
is the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
Let’s face it, Becky, there are seven million refugees and seven million Palestinian Arabs living on the land between the Jordan River and the
Mediterranean Sea. There is no way to erase one of the people there. We all must have the same right to the same rights. And we have to confront that.
And I would say, since we’re talking on an American owned station, that it is the job of the United States to lead the way.
Mr. Biden has an opportunity to recognize the state of Palestine and to stop talking empty words about a two-state solution for 30 years. We have
to make Palestine real for the Palestinian people. And we have to engage in a regional framework that will design and architecture for security,
stability, economic development, prosperity, dignity.
ANDERSON: Well, your words will be well-received by Palestinians and by many people around the region that I am working in and from at present.
Certainly the U.S. has been somewhat not backed by Saudi of late who are being quite explicit about a pathway for the Palestinians being absolutely
embedded into any normalization of relations with Israel at this point. And that is, you know, obviously something we understand to be critical, a
critical pillar for the Biden administration at present.
I want to get your response to what we have heard just in the last half an hour or so. Benjamin Netanyahu has directed the IDF to draw up a plan for
the evacuation of the population from raffling. And let’s just be clear. There’s a population the size of Dallas squeezed up against the border of
Egypt at the bottom of the Gaza Strip at present. And there is a threat of a ground offensive, ground troops going after Hamas in Rafah where they
alleged the main military heads are at present.
And this has been described by everyone, including the U.S., as a disaster where there are not some planning to be had. Many described that threat of
an offensive in Rafah as a negotiation tactic in any deal going forward from Netanyahu. What do you make of what we’ve heard in the last hour? And
do you believe that was a negotiation tactic?
BASKIN: I’m not sure. It could be. We have to understand that everything that’s said publicly by both sides is part of the negotiations. There is no
ultimate military solution to release the hostages. The more we wait, the more hostages will be killed. Of the 136 hostages Israel has already
document the death, the killing, the execution of 31 of them. Behind the scenes, the number is quite higher.
If the Israelis were to encounter the Hamas military leadership and political leadership in the tunnels or bunkers underneath Gaza, they are
most likely surrounded by hostages and a gunfight or an explosion could take place that would kill the soldiers, the Hamas leaders and the
hostages. There is no military solution to get all the hostages home. There can only be a negotiated agreement with Hamas.
There is a possibility, even with the Hamas response for a negotiation, there is some room there. Secretary Blinken was correct in stating that if
it is possible to separate phases one, two and three in the agreement and to negotiate first phase one, and if Hamas were to reduce its demands in
the kind of Palestinian prisoners it wants to free, there could be a 45-day pause in this war, which enable both sides to take a break.
They’re both fatigued. They both need to rethink their steps. And perhaps during that time, the United States and the Qataris and the Egyptians and
others could come up with a plan that could avoid the attack of Rafah and the 20 percent of Gaza where 1.5 million people are located.
ANDERSON: It’s good to have you on, sir. I mean, it felt increasingly clear when Antony Blinken left this region that Washington’s influence was
extremely limited with the Benjamin Netanyahu government. But — well, certainly members of it. But it does — there does seem to be something
some chink of light at this point which will, you know, which clearly mediators are going to hope to take advantage of.
It’s good to have you, sir. Thank you very much indeed for making the time for us tonight.
