MATTINGLY: We are continuing to show you live pictures from Gaza City this morning. People evacuating after Israel announced today’s humanitarian pause will be extended to six hours. Now, another terror group in Gaza, the Palestinian Islamic jihad, acknowledged for the first time that it is also holding Israeli hostages. The group released a video of a 77-year-old woman and a 13-year-old boy. They say it’s ready to release the two on humanitarian grounds.
Joining us now is Gershon Baskin. He is the Middle East director of the International Communities Organization and has extensive experience negotiating the release of hostages. In 2011 he was a critical player in the peace negotiations with Hamas that resulted in the release of an Israeli soldier. Gershon has also been working as an unofficial negotiator to try and help free some Hamas hostages.
Thanks so much for joining us.
We spoke to you last – I think a couple of weeks ago. You, at that point, said your contacts with Hamas had gone dark. Has that changed over the course of the last ten days?
GERSHON BASKIN, UNOFFICIAL ISRAELI NEGOTIATOR: No, there’s been silence from their side over the past week. I’m not particularly concerned because I believe that the decisions that need to be made now with regard to hostage releases are being done under ground in Gaza by the military wing of Hamas. And the people I was talking to, although they’re leaders in Hamas, they’re not connected to the decision making process. They’re detached from what’s happening on the ground. One or two people I was talking to in Gaza have no influence, and the people, the Hamas leadership in Qatar or in Beirut are not going to be consequential in making the decisions ultimately on who gets released and when.
HARLOW: Gershon, why do you think that Palestinian Islamic Jihad, which is a separate terror group operating in Gaza, why do you think that they, at this point, said we have hostages, here’s video of two of them, we’re ready to release them on humanitarian grounds. What’s with the timing?
BASKIN: Well, I think that, first of all, they’re all under control of Hamas, even if hostages are being held by Islamic Jihad. After a month of this war, Hamas has taken control. They have the special unit to deal with hostages. They’re trained and disciplined troops. And Hamas would not tolerate anyone having control. So, if a video was released last night, it was done with the agreement of Hamas.
And it’s part of the psychological warfare that’s going on, aimed at putting pressure on the Israeli government through Israeli society. When they see live hostages, first of all, we’re all very happy to see that they’re alive, but we all have to understand that this is part of the negotiations that’s going on, and it’s a tool to apply pressure on Israel.
MATTINGLY: Gershon, you make a critical point that reflects some of the frustration I’ve heard from western diplomats in terms of how these negotiations are going. They’re not sure if who they’re negotiating with always actually has power, has authority. You had CIA Director Bill Burns, Israeli intelligence officials in Doha meeting about this issue. Doha is where Hamas’ political leadership is. They’re saying they may not have a ton of influence on what’s happening underground right now. How do — who are they supposed to negotiate with?
BASKIN: Well, obviously, I don’t have the inside information of what’s happening between — behind closed doors in Doha, but it seems quite important because the CIA director go — did go there. The head of the Mossad in Israel went there. The head – the former head of central intelligence in Lebanon went there after being engaged by the American diplomat Amos Hochstein.
But my thinking, my understanding is that the more direct channel and the channel with more influence is the Egyptian channel, who have negotiated not only with Hamas but with the Islamic jihad. The last two rounds of warfare between Israel and Gaza was (ph) Islamic Jihad and it was the Egyptians who negotiated the ceasefire.
The two women hostages who were released early on in the war were released through the Egyptian mediation, and they came from the Kassam (ph) fighting unit. And it was negotiated from Egypt’s intelligence to the Hamas military command. So, I really would put more emphasis on there.
Yesterday, some of the Hamas leaders from Doha traveled to Cairo and they met with Abas Camel (ph), who’s the head of central intelligence in Egypt. And I think that’s significant because they’re recognizing, perhaps, that the Egyptian channel is the right channel.
HARLOW: You have personal — sadly, personal experience with this, losing a family member kidnapped and killed by Hamas in 2005. And with all of that experience, it’s part of why you’ve dedicated your career to this. But also you really urged people to have caution and pause when we’re hearing about potential significant hostage deals. Why?
BASKIN: Well, because it’s all part of the negotiation. Everything that’s said by all sides, including Israel, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, the mediators themselves, it’s all aimed at putting pressure on the negotiators, on all the sides, to make a deal. It’s very difficult to believe everything that’s said. There are rumors floating around every day when these negotiations are taking place at very high levels of security and secrecy.
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So, if there are leaks from it, they are intentional leaks and they’re meaned (ph) to influence decision makers and public policy – public opinion. So, we really have to be caution about — cautious about it.
There is a possible deal in the making, a humanitarian deal for women, children, and elderly. It will require an Israeli ceasefire. That in itself is a difficult decision, not because Israel doesn’t want to ceasefire, but with the positions of the Israeli army today, a ceasefire requires redeployment, because, if not, their soldiers are sitting ducks. They are inside Gaza City. They are surrounding Gaza City.
HARLOW: Yes.
BASKIN: They’re around hospitals and schools and refugee camps. So, it would require a major military move to do a ceasefire when we don’t trust that Hamas would stop the fire.
HARLOW: Gershon Baskin, live for us from Jerusalem, thank you so much.
BASKIN: You’re very welcome.
